Please stop jokeing, Roland .... ('twas: Re: [Patents] Re: On GPL Ideas and Limited Software Patentability)

[critto@poczta.wp.pl (Krzysztof Sobolewski)]

From:                   Roland Orre <orre@nada.kth.se>
To:                     Krzysztof Sobolewski <critto@poczta.wp.pl>
Copies to:              <patents@liberte.aful.org>
Subject:                Re: Please stop jokeing, Roland .... ('twas: Re: 
[Patents] Re: On
        GPL Ideas and Limited Software Patentability)
Date sent:              Wed, 9 May 2001 17:46:24 +0200 (MET DST)

> Dear Krzysztof,
> 
> The first reaction to a message like yours would possibly be
> to just consider you "st..id" but I don't like seeing people
> as that. The term we call stupidity is usually something
> related to misunderstanding. 

Yeah, we've probably misunderstood each other. It's good that you 
don't 'shoot' your words, but rather weigh each words. Good for you.

> People who understand each
> other do not call each other stupid. So, from that perspective
> stupidity has rarely something to do with IQ, it's usually just
> a communication problem.

Probably.

> I'm surprised of your comments of several reasons:
> 
> From your comments you doesn't sound like are a libertarian at all

Who are you to call WHAT is libertarian, and what is not ??
What references could you give ?? Are you a libertarian activist,, or 
an anti-libertarian activist ??  Or, are you a sociologist ?? 
If you want to get some info on libertarianism, get, for example, to:
http://www.libertarian.to -- Libertarian International, ;
http://www.libertarian.uni.cc -- Libertarian International Organization
http://ww.isil.org -- International Society for Individual Liberties
http://www.self-gov.org -- Advocates for the Self-Government
and, if you please, to my liberty-devoted website:
  http://www.libertaryzm.prv.pl

you  can get directly to English version -- just 
http://www.libertaryzm.prv.pl/en._liberta.htm will be good
or you may get there by clickin' in the upper-right corner.

You'd find there a lot of my essays (54 in English), and literally 
dozens of links to libertarian organizations and websites.

"Libertarianism", however, may also be misunderstood. 
The term "libertarianism" stands for _individual liberty_ and _free 
market_.

We, libertarians differ a bit in our opinions on IP (Intellectual 
Property) -- even on the issues like copyright. Some are in favor of 
it, and consider it the legitimate property, while others do not.

If you would ask me, I'd say, that I'm in favor of copyright (but it 
should be changed a bit, i.e., shortened to, say, 20 years, and the 
category of 'abandonware' should be introduced (programs not sold 
anymore, found by somebody, and then transferred and distributed 
further, as with the good, old ZX Spectrum, Atari, Commodore, 
Amiga and so on games and utiltiies)

In the issue of patents, however, FEW libertarians would say they 
are 'pro-software patent'. Most of them consider sw patenting 
exactly what it is: limitation of free expression and a threat to 
FREE MARKET.

And thus, I'm the _SWORN ENEMY_ of the software patentability. 
In fact, they are the biggest anti-market, anti-freedom, protectionist 
scheme we've ever faced. I'm really horrified by them, and I do my 
best to get rid of them.

Sw patents are just another form of censorship.

[cut]

> First, as you call yourself a libertarian and are prepared to
> defend Greg's way of treating me, does that imply that you
> consider him stupid then?

Who told you this ?? No, I don't consider him 'stupid' in any way;
neither I'm willing to 'defend his way of treating you'. It is the issue 
between you and him. What I've expressed, was my fierce 
opposition to making use of the "libel" law, especially in such 
stupid case. It is NOT a libel when one says that somebody's 
wrong, or when one says he/she strongly disagrees with 
somebody; or doesn't believe him/her. In fact, each of us, you, I, 
and others, as individual, has the *right* to:
  1. distrust whomever ey wants to 
  2. disagree with whosever ey wants to 
  3. claim that anyone's wrong, and so on.
   
Libel law may be justified, but only in some special cases; eg. to 
claim that you are a dangerous criminal (eg. rapist, murderer, 
kidnapper, robber and so on) would be a libel, and you *would 
have* the right to sue such person. However, some limitations 
apply even in such case:
   1. such a claim MUST be 'serious' to be a libel; and thus, no 
joke, satire and so on may be a libel 
   2. such a claim MUST be 'looking reliably' -- you know, some 
unreliable newspapers publish the 'incredible' stories about public 
persons. though they libel those persons, nobody sues them, 
because they are *unreliable* -- and thus, their libel isn't dangerous 
at all

when abused or perverted, libel and slander law may be as big 
threat to free expression as software patents. 

Francois Voltaire said, "I disapprove what you say, but I'll defend to 
the death your right to say it". It is what I wanted to say -- no more, 
no less.

I completely agree with you in our Cause against sw patentability.
I'm not Greg's supporter in ANY way; in fact, I dislike him even 
more than you do.

However, I'm foremostly the supporter of *free speech* itself. You've 
threatened Greg with libel lawsuit in the case, that is really idiotic 
and unworthy of any trial. It's so stupid, that it would be laughed off 
any court, whether in USA, Europe or on Mars ;)) 

I know that you were trying to provoke Greg in some way; to prove 
his wrongness about patentability, and to ridicule the general 
lawyers' attitude "see me, sue me". You should, however, find a 
better way than to amuse the long-time lawyer ... :))

[cut]

> I can not blame Greg for that view, but his view is futuristic.
> We are not there yet. Some day in the future when we have
> understood the programming language to model the physcial world
> then Greg will be right, 

We all will be livin' in Matrix then ;))

> but we are far from being there yet,
> when we are there we will not need anything like the patent system
> for hardware either but I start to merely realize that we should
> get rid of the whole patent system quite soon, because it's 20
> year time span and limited and costly protection model I don't
> consider to be efficient for hardware either.

Roland, please understand me well: I'm WITH YOU !!
Cheer up!! I'm *totally* against the patentability of software.
I've been subscribed to this list for about two years. There was 
many a time I've been arguin' with Greg and other patent 
advocates. Ask Hartmut or Bernard if you don't believe me.

[cuuut]

> Now, as most of the people on this list have realized, the
> patent system is a serious obstacle for software development
> and it is a threat to open source. Patentability of software
> causes monopolies and delays the technological development.

That's what I've been saying as far as 2 years ago !!!
I'm a fan of Open Source, I prefer Linux, and I write a lot of 
programs, both propertiary and free. In either case, sw pats would 
be a threat to my activity. Sw pats threaten both propertiary 
(copyrighted for some exclusivity) and free (copyrighted for open 
source and dissemination, or PD programs)
 
> The reason I consider Greg to have been offending me is that Greg
> knows that I have realized this and he should know that from my
> perspective the patent system will not protect me and my algorithm
> in any reasonable way, if I had to patent it in its whole.

Okay, so tell him that he may get stuffed, or so on. Ridicule him. 

Don't call a Mummy ;)) (the state ;) because he offended you. Act 
like a man.

If you want to know, I'm a subscriber of many discussion lists and 
forums. On most of them, the level of personal culture is high. 
There happen, however, some stupid personal attacks, even some 
abuses. The worst cases are resolved by the moderator/admin.
The worst behavin' people are removed -- and that's all. Pending a 
lawsuit is really stupid, it's a loss of time, and it's abusing the 
authority of the courts, too.

> Maybe "offending" is the wrong word then, maybe I should use
> intentionally "misleading" or something like that.

Maybe. 

> When you said:
> > I don't like Greg, Roland. But would you attack him for his so-called
> > "slander" or "libel", YOU will become the ENEMY OF FREEDOM.
> >
> > You will be pointed out in each and every libertarian and anti-
> > censorship group. Moreover, your case can become another case
> > against libel and slander laws. And, though I don't like Greg, I'm
> > prepared to *DEFEND* his right to speak what he wants to.
> 
> And I guess I have the freedom to react on his statements in whatever
> way I want. 

Not exactly. You may:  
    1. attack him in your defense
    2. ridicule him
    3. polemise with him
    4. boycott or ostracise him

You don't have the right, however, to eg. shoot him in his head, or 
call a street gang to beat him up, or sue him to the court. Either 
case includes *initation of force*. to say something doesn't mean 
to initiate force. To kill someone, or beat someone up, or 
expropriate somebody's money by the means of a lawsuit *IS* the 
initiation of force.

> YOU may call it freedom to try to mislead someone.
> 
> He suggested a protection scheme for me which would not really protect me.
> Even though my brain is not that very big I'm not that stupid. If someone
> tries to lead me into an action which is bad for me, is that really
> an expression of freedom?

Yes, it is. You don't have to listen to him, as you don't need to 
believe somebody tellin' you that the Earth is flat or so. But you 
don't have the right to sue anybody tellin' you that the Earth is flat, 
unless he is your geography teacher, or a legal counselor.
AFAIK, Greg is *NOT* your legal counselor; and, if you wanted to 
hire him, you had to pay a lot of money to him (if he agreed at all).
Speakin' as the private person, he has the right to say whatever he 
pleases to. And remember: nobody but God is perfect. We, 
Humans are fallacious :))

   Yours in Liberty,
        Critto

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            Krzysztof (Christopher) "Critto" Sobolewski
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