From critto@poczta.wp.pl  Mon Jun 11 11:42:53 2001
From: critto@poczta.wp.pl (Krzysztof Sobolewski)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:42:53 +0200
Subject: [Patents] Free Market ('twas: Re: Sw pats and nazi propaganda ...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0106110901210.23695-100000@mulix.oas.a2e.de>
References: <200106102049.WAA29611@bartu.bos.a2e.de>
Message-ID: <20010611114803.3AAD1108C3@stabilite.aful.org>

From:           	PILCH Hartmut <phm@a2e.de>
To:             	Krzysztof Sobolewski <critto@poczta.wp.pl>
Copies to:      	<patents@liberte.aful.org>
Subject:        	Re: Sw pats and nazi propaganda ('twas: Re:  
[Patents] free sw
	removed from german website ...)
Date sent:      	Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:29:35 +0200 (CEST)

[cut

> > We *MUST* tell the US invaders: get out of Europe.
> 
> That's something for another campaign, not the Eurolinux petition or so.
> Your agenda is far too general.

I know, Hartmut. My intent was to get more attention to the main 
problem: oversteeping European jurisdictions by US and vice versa 
(as in Yahoo! case). 

> > Get out with your stupid 'laws', with your software patents, with your
> > culture of death, your "political correctness", your racial problems,
> > your crime promotion on TV, movies etc. (I mean the violent movies, and
> > so on). We may accept some of your things, but only those which are
> > beneficial and good for Europeans. And thus, we should adopt free market
> > (it's greater in USA than in Europe anyway; consider the 'milk quotas'
> > and other 'limits' regulations' of production in Europe; there are none
> > such in USA), free speech (1st Amendment), gun rights (2nd Amendment),
> > personal privacy (4th Amendment AFAIR).
> 
> Actually it is the 1st Amendment that is protecting some of the "nazi hate
> propaganda" which you want to see exempted.  German courts had similar
> problems with German language nazi websites based in the US.

OK, but why can't such sites be attacked on the other grounds -- 
eg. posing a threat to the safety of human beings ?? KKK's 
outlawed in USA. "1st Amendment"-related issues haven't 
legalised them back (fortunately). 

I know, that 1st Amendment is too precious to be abridged for any 
reason. So, everybody should be permitted to say that, for 
example, he doesn't like Jewish people. But callin' to kill them is 
the different matter -- that should be punished.
 
> Free Market again cannot exist without a public counter-weight.  Even more
> so if you are to a large extent against regulation by "intellectual
> property", the market provides no sufficient incentive to produce valuable
> informational/cultural goods and other public goods, including public
> order and moral.

Hartmut, 'Free Market' in the libertarian meaning, means more than 
the mere free exchange of tangible goods. It means "any voluntary 
exchange between the Human Beings". We, libertarians, extend 
the meaning of "Free Market" to the "free market of ideas" and 
"free market of action", too. And thus, Linux, Gnome, KDE, and so 
on *are* the free-market products -- they've been created by the 
free humans, free to exchange some ideas. 

Also, the non-money communities, like kibutzu in Israel or 
cummunes in some European countries *are* the free-market 
creations, too. They've been created by the free humans, who 
decided to utilize their freedom to exchange in such way. 

By contrast, patents are anti-market privilleges granted by a state 
(or by a king). If X is not permitted to do with his/her tangible goods 
whatever ey wants, there is no free market. While it's true that 
some libertarians agreed with patents (eg. Murray Rothbard), 
others didn't. The majority of libertarians do not agree with them; 
and surely nobody there now (Rothbard died in 1995) agrees with 
software patents -- even if some agree, say, with the patents in 
mechanics or medicine.

OK, but we'll better leave that topic (free market) alone here. We 
don't have to agree on that issue. It's important that we agree on 
other issues (sw patents, jurisdictions). While it's true that I'm 
helpin' you mostly on the free-market basis, I could have any other 
reason as well. It's the most important that we cooperate.

    Yours in Liberty,
         Critto

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	    Krzysztof (Christopher) "Critto" Sobolewski
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PS. I have nothing to do with companies, on which
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  accounts, except having them there
---------- <KILL "ECHELON">
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---------- </KILL "ECHELON>
PS.1 "Proclaim liberty troughout the land unto all the 
      inhabitants thereof!"
YEAR 2001 -- ** YEAR OF FREDERIC BASTIAT ** www.bastiat.net


